Interesting presentation about the next programming language for 2010

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[kryton9]

Here is an interesting presentation for the next programming language from the perspective of game programming.
It is written by Tim Sweeney from Epic Games.

http://www.st.cs.uni-sb.de/edu/seminare/2005/advanced-fp/docs/sweeny.pdf

[PetrSchreiber]

Hi kryton9,

thanks for interesting link.

Good stuff in the presentation, I need to pass it multiple times

There are few things I don't understand - why not use ASM optimized sections in code ( if commented, no problem I think ), and TOTAL omission of Quake I-III, Doom 3 and Source engine in the history list.
I know everybody thinks their engine is the most perfect, but presents Doom 1 as latest worth mentioning engine from Carmack is very nasty and unprofi I think .

Also although it could be possible we will get 20 core CPU in 2009, I'm not sure about using it to maxx.
Many of current applications don't use multithreading at all, so they are OK with one core. I don't presume I will play Unreal X and have 10 others applications running to make the CPU fully used.

On other side, Alan Wake already uses power of 4 core CPUs, each thread handles different things like physics and so on. But it won't make me happy to hear I must have processor with at least hyperthreading to run game on seriously decreased detail level.
Both Max Payne 1 & 2 look awesome and run fast on my sub-gigahertz PC, this is huge jump .

Well, the screens from "Gears of War" in whole presentation look awesome awesome awesome !


Thanks a lot,
Petr

[joske]

Interesting to see some numbers and quantities

[Barney]

If one takes a look at page 20 of that PDF file, one will find the answer to almost all of the problems plaguing the programming side of the game industry. It's the page about performance where he said "...everything is performance sensitive" and then finishes with "We never use assembly language".

This summarizes nicely the whole mind setup of modern programmers. They tend to find all sorts of excuses (not reliable, not productive, etc.) not to use machine code. We did not have such problems back in the 70's and 80's. Machine code programming was something no one worthy of the programmer's title would be running away from. I still believe if machine code programming is more widely used we would not be having all this bloated OS's and applications. The productivity may.. I repeat MAY be a bit smaller but that would be more than compensated for by smaller and faster applications and much smaller requirements for expensive hardware. But that's me speaking. Modern guys will probably say I'm just a dinosaur of the ages long gone...

Barney

[PetrSchreiber]

I agree with Barney,

... I wonder why they refuse asm, as it *could* make the hardware requirements much lower so better accessible to more people. In a "closed source" product I think faster is better, at least try to do some optimizations when game is in pre release stage and all features added.

I think the creator of code should be the "optimizer", not some AI compiler
I like the way PowerBASIC has covered this optimizing problem.
In classic SELECT CASE you can specify 1 word extra to determine how the code will be generated.

I was always curious if there is some statistic regarding game coding. If I presume 3 year development time, how much of this they spend on writing engine, how fast they are able to code it and what % of all dev time takes the "game design" itself. And how fast are the artists too in creating the "visible" stuff

Still, there is lot of interesting information in the slides, will see how big impact it will have on thinBASIC game engine

OT : Did anyone played Gears of War ? Will it be released on PC too ?


Bye,
Petr

[erosolmi]

Petr,

Power Basic could be used to develop such games, no doubt. It is fast, full optimized, easy to master and a lot of other positive sides.
The only problem is that it is not cross platform.

Why people use C/C++ to develop games? Portability, cross platform, standards.

Is ASM portable from one platform to the other? Do not think so.
When you have to produce a game for PC, XBox, Plystation at the same time, C/C++ is the only road I think.

Eros

[Mike Stefanik]

Small, independent game developers use a lot of different languages. For large, commerical games on the Windows platform you'll almost exclusively see C++ being used. The principal reasons are that's what most toolkits support, and doing anything in DX9 using a procedural language would be difficult; it makes extensive use of COM and is definitely geared towards C++.

Of course, the biggest reason that C++ is used is because C++ is used. It has its own kind of inertia. If you want to be a professional game developer, then you have to know C++. If professional game developers know C++, then that's the language they're going to use. It's the same kind of thing that you see in systems development.

[kryton9]

I think no ASM is not from not being able to do it, but from a productivity sense and making it easy for a team to work on it. And if you program in ASM and it makes your code not cross platform then that is a good reason of course right there. He is saying the compiler and languages need to provide these things with what is coming up. I am glad that these kind of talks happen.

I wish I kept a link about the next C++ coming out from the creator of C++, sounds like a nightmare, it is due out around 2009. Let me see if I can find it in my history, brb....
http://beust.com/weblog/archives/000374.html

[Barney]

I think no ASM is not from not being able to do it, but from a productivity sense and making it easy for a team to work on it. And if you program in ASM and it makes your code not cross platform then that is a good reason of course right there.

As I've said... those are just the usual (and completely wrong IMHO) excuses for not using ASM. And talking about productivity... great game houses are not exactly known for their speed in bringing the goods out to the market. Writing a game for two or three years and ending up with a product that immediately needs a 100MB+ patch is not productivity. At least not in my vocabulary.

Barney

[Mike Stefanik]

I wish I kept a link about the next C++ coming out from the creator of C++, sounds like a nightmare, it is due out around 2009. Let me see if I can find it in my history, brb....
http://beust.com/weblog/archives/000374.html

As a C++ programmer, I don't see why they're a "nightmare" at all. It looks like a fairly modest, incremental change to the language. The author of that blog looks like he's primarily bemoaning the fact that it isn't C#. Well, if you want to program in C#, then guess what? Program in C#.

There's no question that C# is easier to program in, and you can be more productive "out of the box", so to speak. On the other hand, there's also a lot of black boxes that you have to work with. C++ is decoupled from any framework, while C# is intricately tied to .NET. For example, you don't see any C# compilers out there generating standalone, native x86 code because a lot of what is in the language (reflection, attributes, generics, etc.) has an inherent dependency on the .NET framework.

The imminent demise of C++ is much exagerated, I think.

[Blue Steel]

What gets me is that in over 20 years no one has successfully buit an every day language.. eg: where one simply tells the compiler / interperator .. and say something like

Code:

open screen   ' opens a screen the same as the desktop settings
ask question from keyboard "What is your name"
ask question from Microphone "What is your name"

display "Hi " answer to question ' Displays responce on te screen
say ""Hi " answer to question   ' says reply over sound card
print "Hi " answer to question  ' prints responce to printer

notice "ok to continue" ' displays a notice dialog with oprion OK (the first word as the button)

or

startrek  like

Computer
I'd like a game where the player is object "xxxxx" and they can mover hotizontaly at the bottom of the screen. the enemy AI to use object "yyyyy" will move at the top end of the screen and on each pass will move closer to the player shooting at random intivils. .... etc.. etc"

Not holodeck type .. simply on the screen.. Today they have translators that can convert the spoken word .. so why not have a translater type of programming language where you tell it what you want

I used to like mucking around with "Forth" and getting it to learn stuff through multriple choice.. ok.. its not really learning.. but building uyp a data base of choices then computing which matches best by the process of ilimination..

there are many ways and aspects of programming that need to be conmsidered in my opinion.. eg: crossplatform.. there is no or little reason that programming languafges of any sort need to be platform dependant.. they should be able to use micro kernal techno9logy.. where they get compiled to a universal token language.. when then in turn gets interperated by each platform that its run on.. so all the graphics and api , sound , input , output. is handled by the microkernal fore that system. this would mean that it would free the programmers from having to know all the api calls etc.. but untill the computer market becomes more involved with crossplatform (which it won't untill one compane owns or has a great vested interest in the other processors.. thats right processors nor individual machines) then it wqould be in their interest to have software being able to run on multiple platforms , and cxhip arcitecture.

this IS a real possability with the speed of machines today.. unlike in the old days when one had to write something in machine code to get every ounce of speed that they could. these days unless you really really need speed for doing massice calculations like in  a physics lab one can use an interperated / tokonised language.. then have like a library that gets called on the end users machine to covnert or use those tokens to how the end users machine needs it..
This would split programming into 2 major fields .. one to write the micro kernals and the other to write, design the products.. . some may say that this is way in the future if at all.. I sayu WHY.. its not so different from today .. hardle a windows program gets written that doesn't call API's , dll's on windows. so whats wrong with writting to a universal library that then gets concerted by the end machine.. this way technologies can come and go.. and the software no matter what language they are written in will still work because they are converted by the end mackings kernals into what they need...

With all that in place then the language writters would have their hands / minds freed to write better easier interfaces for with the programmers could then impliment their thoughts through ie: syntax or the lack there of.. through the use of like fuzzy logic.

Hope that ppl don't think that I'm a crackpot .. lol.. its just the way that i see programming developing .. if not now r soon.. it will one day go down that track unless all compurts start using the same chipsets which is highly unlikely

[erosolmi]

Code

GeSHi (thinbasic):
uses "SAPI"
uses "console"
 
DIM YourName AS STRING
SayAndPrint("What is your name?")
YourName = inputbox$("What is your name?", "Tell me your name, please", "")
if YourName = "" then
  SayAndPrint("I'm sorry but I cannot play without a name! Bye, bye.")
  stop
end if
 
SayAndPrint("Hi " & YourName & ".")
 
DIM YourInput     AS STRING
DIM YourCommand   AS STRING
DIM YourParams    AS STRING
dim AskUser       as string
 
randomize
while ucase$(trim$(YourCommand)) <> "BYE"
  AskUser = choose$(rnd(1,3), "What do you want to do!", _
                              "Tell me what I can do for you.", _
                              "Tell me.")
 
  SayAndPrint(AskUser)
 
  YourInput = inputbox$(AskUser, "Tell me what you want to do. Type bye or cancel to exit.", "")
  YourCommand = parse$(YourInput, $spc, 1)
  YourParams  = trim$(mid$(YourInput, len(YourCommand) + 1))
 
  if function_exists(YourCommand) then
    call YourCommand(YourParams)   '---This is the trick to call a script function using a dynamic string
  else
    if YourCommand <> "" then
      SayAndPrint("I'm sorry but I cannot understand: " & YourCommand & ".")
    end if
  end if
  if trim$(YourCommand) = "" then exit while
 
wend
SayAndPrint("Bye, bye " & YourName & "! See you next time.")
 
 
'---Console output plus say
function SayAndPrint(sText as string)
  console_writeline(sText)
  if sapi_moduleloaded = %TRUE then sapi_speak(sText)
end function
 
'---Some functions to play with
function Play(sParam as string)
 
  select case sParam
    case ""
      SayAndPrint ("Ok, you want to play but at what game?")
    case else
      SayAndPrint ("Ok, " & YourName & ". We can play: " & sParam & ".")
  end select
 
end function
 
function Bye(sParam as string)
  SayAndPrint ("I hope you had good time with me.")
end function
 
function Nothing(sParams as string)
  local Count as long
 
  SayAndPrint ("Ok, " & YourName & ". We can have some rest for the moment.")
  for Count = 1 to 4
    SayAndPrint (choose$(Count, "One.", "Two.", "Three.", "Four."))
    sleep 1000
  next
  SayAndPrint ("Ok, " & YourName & ". Time to play again.")
 
end function
 
Created by GeSHI 1.0.7.20

  Just for joking of course.


Multiplatform? Final target of .Net technology will be nothing more/less than having platform independant languages running on a common interface. And recent Microsoft/Novell agreement is a fist (or second or third ...) sign of this move.

Eros

[Barney]

What gets me is that in over 20 years no one has successfully buit an every day language..

Err... actually there is one (sort of) and it's called Cobol. If you use it in it's original form it pretty much resembles everyday language. That was the intention behind it, anyway... 

Barney

[Blue Steel]

I meant .. that the compile / interperator sets up all the variables etc.. and the p[rogrammer only has to tell it what they want it to do .. notice there were'nt any variables in my sample codes .. that is unless one wants too stipulate variables..
I'd like to see a programming language like .. telling someone how to get from a to b .. eg: kind of like elaborated turtle graphics.. pen up, move rto middle of screen , change pen to red square 2px, pen down, move up 20px, move left 30px, change pen green round 1pc , draw filled circle radius 40px. etc..etc

game example:

Code:

choose a number 1-10, ask player to guess number if number is less than computers number tell player nember is less. if number is greater than computers number then tell player number is greater do all this until number is same then say you got it.

thats what i mean by everyday language no programmers jargon , no variables no structure.. the person simply tells in their language the computer what they want done.  the computer then goes away and generates the variables needed the loops needed and comes back with a sample when then can be modified with further instructions to make the game better or change it entirely.. eg: change your number from 1-100 and just tell the player if their guess was right or wrong.

just like that in pure english like someone would explain a game to someone else.

I know this is still only a pipe dream.. but i really thought we'd be closer now than befgore .. but we arn't .. programming is becomming more complex instead of easier.. eg: back in the C64 i wrote a game in less than 4k of memory.. the same game today would take at least double.. you used to be able to use the screen locatins as your array .. now you can't .. you have to build an array then tell iy how to display that array.. as opposed to simply placing data into the systems array for the screen directly.. if you do that today your data may be overwritten (say when you minimise the window etc... so its more complicated..

I know its wishfull thinking.. as the highly paid programmers then would think themselves out of work.. far from it.. they'd then be making the computers interact with humans and not the other way around..

[kryton9]

I hear you Blue. There are so many areas for improvment in programming and operating systems. I am surprised by the direction the world has gone from the great start we had in the early days. I hope some young genius out there is working on something that is a revolutionary language or OS that will shake up the establishment and help us move ahead and out of this sort of rut of the last almost 20 years.

I watched a video on youtube about the video toaster launch on the amiga, that was a revolution, that was almost 20 years ago, I think 1987. Who would have thought 20 years later we would still have almost the same type interface, the only revolution was the internet and video graphics, but the OS hasn't really improved that much and we just had popularity changes in languages, but no real revolutionary languages have appeared.

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